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reflexuk

Future member
Jul 16, 2008
186
0
Nr Chesterfield Derbyshire
I swapped the rear calipers today and doing so I couldn't get the handbrake cable ball bit to fit through the slot in the lever. I noticed the lever was bigger on the ones I took off so I set about swapping them across. It's one nut and the lever is splined onto a shaft.

Now I have one caliper where the lever springs back to it's home position and one that doesn't. the one that doesn't can be swung up and down freely by hand and doesn't engage the handbrake, what has gone wrong?

I need to check I tightened the nut and that the lever has engaged on the spline properly, but I think it did!
 
On the face of it your replacement caliper was faulty, you should have taken it back for replacement or a refund.

I assume you had slackened the handbrake adjustment off at the lever end? The ball should not be sliding through anything, the slackened cable allows you to pull the ball out of the lever and slide the cable out.

The lever has a return spring, which should be obvious on the new caliper. You need to make sure it's present and engaged on the lever that you've swapped over.

The lever on the caliper needs to be spring-loaded towards the "off" position, and held just clear of the stop, by the handbrake cable, so that the automatic adjustment works.
 
I took another look at the dodgy caliper and I can see no return spring, only a conical shaped rubber dust seal that sits behind it. I can also report that it has somehow inexplicably regained its ability to return to the home position! I wonder if fluid pressure could be responsible for the (springiness) that disengages the handbrake. Perhaps it needs further bleeding?

A few turns on the handbrake cable adjuster nut through the ashtray opening and I now have a handbrake again, 7 clicks or so.

I need take another look at the caliper levers to see where they are at with the handbrake off, to find out whether I have adjusted the cable too short and now the levers do not return to their home position.
 
There is no fluid pressure when the brake pedal is released, which is the condition it's in when the handbrake is let off. There is most definitely a return spring somewhere, if it isn't external and operating on the lever itself, then it must be internal to the caliper.

When I did my rear brake pads a few weeks ago, the levers were definitely spring-loaded against the end stops. I didn't look to see where the spring was, though.

I'd hoped you would be able to look at the new caliper to see what a working one had, rather than look at the dodgy one, where you don't know if there's something broken or missing.

I'd say that a failure to return the handbrake lever to the rest stop may indicate that the piston is seizing in the caliper.
 
Ah, there isn't a new caliper among the four. The older ones are the painted ones I just fitted. They all have a springy feeling on the handbrake levers but this one somehow lost it for a while, perhaps there was a seizure of some kind. I'm still not happy with the performance of the rear brakes so now I have some Mintex M1144 pads to fit and see how/if that changes things. I might drop by my mot tester to see if he can quantify the handbrake before and after the change.
 
my handbrake spring was working fine,well thats what i thought but it wasnt releaseing all the way,so had to have a new caliper have you noticed a drop in mpg and extra heat to the discs?
 
Disc temps I took today don't indicate any binding issues.

Today I stopped by my MOT tester to see if his equipment could quantify the effectiveness of my rear brakes. His gadget showed that they worked adequately using the foot pedal and would lock the rear wheels up.

When we tested the handbrake it would not lock the wheels and would currently fail an MOT!

I knew there was something wrong......

He seems to think most caliper handbrakes operate a cam an when the lobe wears it can no longer apply adequate force. Can anyone on here confirm or deny if that's how our rear caliper works?
 
I've never had the rears lock up for an mot and passed everytime, they only have to be a certain efficiency, they don't have to lock up and with abs it should be impossible for the foot brake.:)
 
reflexuk wrote

When we tested the handbrake it would not lock the wheels and would currently fail an MOT!

I knew there was something wrong......


He seems to think most caliper handbrakes operate a cam an when the lobe wears it can no longer apply adequate force. Can anyone on here confirm or deny if that's how our rear caliper works?

That is how the Leon's rear calipers work, but unless you are in the habit of handbraking at every corner, the mechanism doesn't get enough usage to wear significantly.

As has beeen said already, the MOT does not require the handbrake to be able to lock the rear wheels on the brake testing machine, only to meet a minimum efficiency, which is 1/3 of the efficiency of the footbrake.

Just to confirm your earlier messages, none of these calipers is new? So you've replaced your calipers with second-hand ones from somewhere.

Why did you replace the old calipers? Had something gone wrong?

Are the new-fit calipers identical to the old ones? If not it's possible that the handbrake cable fittings aren't compatible or need adjustment of some kind.

It is compulsory for the handbrake to operate on a completely separate mechanism from the footbrake. So you can't, for instance, have a handbrake lever that operates a hydraulic piston feeding into the rear brake lines.

The mechanism used on our cars is a mechanical linkage from the handbrake lever to the rear caliper pistons. At the caliper, the handbrake cable operates a lever that acts on a rod attached to the piston inside the caliper - you aren't going to get a lot of leverage this way, and certainly not nearly as much as you get from the hydraulic system, with its servo-assistance. There are various ways that the force is transmitted to the piston, usually involving a cam of some sort, sometimes a lever.

Inside the caliper, the handbrake rod has a screw thread and is screwed into the piston. The caliper is so arranged that, with the handbrake off (i.e. in normal driving), every time you apply the brakes the piston is pulled out of the rod, unscrewing itself a little bit. The rod has a stop so that a small clearance is maintained when the footbrake is released, and thus the handbrake clearance is automatically adjusted every time you apply the footbrake.

Now, these principals have been used on rear brake calipers for donkeys years, and most of them are pretty reliable. But the handbrake mechanism can still jam, usually by the outside bits getting corroded or the seals where the motion gets transferred into the hydraulic system (to get at the piston) leak or get jammed with dirt.

If your handbrake is non-MOT compliant according to your friendly tester you need to find out why. Is it just one side that's bad, or both? How many clicks of the handbrake lever are you using to get full application? Are the handbrake cables adjusted properly at the caliper end? Lots of things could be wrong, especially if your newly fitted calipers are not the same as the original ones. However, I'd be looking for jammed pistons, not auto-adjusting as expected and so leaving the handbrake lever unable to get them to contact the disks. This is more likely if the new (old) calipers had been left drained of fluid, in a scrapyard for instance.


Just for completeness, other (more expensive) cars with rear disk brakes have different mechanisms for dealing with the handbrake problem. Some have completely separate handbrake calipers and pads: these can now be hydraulic as they are separate from the main system. Another way is to have a small set of drum brake shoes acting on a small drum cast into the center of the disk - in many ways this is the best , as drums can be made self-servoing, acting to increase the braking force with rotation. All the extra components mean that these methods are not applied to most "family" cars.

It could be worse. Some Citroens had handbrakes acting on the front wheels. I've never investigated how or why, I don't have a C&G and ten years in the plumbing trade necessary to the study of Citroen hydro-mechanics :rolleyes:
 
That's a great explanation, thanks.

Nothing had 'gone wrong' with the original calipers though I was disturbed when I noticed the unequal home positions of the handbrake levers when it wasn't applied. I thought this indicated a problem. The discs were rusted 10mm down both outside edges and some way out from the inside too leaving me with what looked like only 70% of useful contact area. I've got 312mm fronts with painted calipers and yellow stuff so I decided it's time to do something better with the rears. New discs and painted calipers was my decision.

I replaced the original 'old' calipers with this pair because they cost me nothing and I had sand blasted, primed and painted them red. The car was off the road for only 3 hours while I did the swap. The calipers came from a friends breaker, a 1998 S reg Golf with 180,000miles, and are externally the same. They were out of use for only a matter of weeks and had never been emptied of fluid. There is one slight difference in the size of the seat for the handbrake cable ball so I had to swap the levers across.

Since fitting them I have adjusted - shortened the hanbrake cables by way of the adjuster under the rear ashtray. In tonights test I was pulling 11 clicks and came to the end of the available throw of something, maybe the levers on the calipers were pulled to their stops.

On a side note my friend has a BMW 318 compact and doesn't like the drum in disc style handbrake it has because they're notorious for ripping the mechanism out of the backplate - it is a rally car however.
 
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reflexuk wrote

Nothing had 'gone wrong' with the original calipers though I was disturbed when I noticed the unequal home positions of the handbrake levers when it wasn't applied. I thought this indicated a problem. The discs were rusted 10mm down both outside edges and some way out from the inside too leaving me with what looked like only 70% of useful contact area. I've got 312mm fronts with painted calipers and yellow stuff so I decided it's time to do something better with the rears. New discs and painted calipers was my decision.

The levers at the calipers should be just off their end stops when the handbrake is released. The balance is set at the handbrake lever, so perhaps all that was necessary was to slacken off one of the cable adjusters a bit?

Brake discs are consumables in these enlightened days of no asbestos in the brake pad material - discs and pads are of comparable hardness. There is a minimum thickness below which the disc must be replaced - sounds to me like you'd reached it.

I replaced the original 'old' calipers with this pair because they cost me nothing and I had sand blasted, primed and painted them red. The car was off the road for only 3 hours while I did the swap. The calipers came from a friends breaker, a 1998 S reg Golf with 180,000miles, and are externally the same. They were out of use for only a matter of weeks and had never been emptied of fluid. There is one slight difference in the size of the seat for the handbrake cable ball so I had to swap the levers across.

So the new calipers are identical in fit and function to the old ones, but have a lot more miles and years under their belts. Plus you don't know if they worked before you got your hands on them.

Since fitting them I have adjusted - shortened the hanbrake cables by way of the adjuster under the rear ashtray. In tonights test I was pulling 11 clicks and came to the end of the available throw of something, maybe the levers on the calipers were pulled to their stops.

11 clicks is about the full throw of the handbrake lever, and is far too many - in that factor alone you would fail MOT. It's almost entirely certain that the handbrake mechanism is not adjusting up to the disk as it should - you should need no more than 3-6 clicks.

The handbrake cables should be tightened so that the levers at the calipers are just pulled free of their end stops, by 1mm or so, and evenly at both sides. This is the only adjustment you can make - the rest of the slack in the handbrake mechanism must be taken up by the auto-adjustment process.

I'm assuming you wound back the pistons all the way when you fitted the new disks, pads and calipers. It's possible that the pistons have gone to the very end of the threads and stuck. It might be worth getting back to the calipers and winding the pistons in by half a turn or so, to see if that frees them up. Several applications of the footbrake should then wind the pistons in to their expected rest positions, so the pads are just clear of the disc.

On a side note my friend has a BMW 318 compact and doesn't like the drum in disc style handbrake it has because they're notorious for ripping the mechanism out of the backplate - it is a rally car however.

Like I said, drums are self-servoing, and so will tend to tighten up once applied. This is great for parking, not so good for handbrake turns. A rally car should have a different handbrake system installed if it's going to be used on the move, or he should learn to get round corners without using the handbrake :D
 
Yes I know they worked before I fitted them, like I said, they were running around on my mates car for the duration of his ownership!

I intend to clean up an paint my original calipers - they are only 62,000 old, 7yrs.

I do use a propper windback tool.

Can the handbrake cables L/R be adjusted individually? Threaded in front of the balance bar I imagine?

Corners! Corners you say! Ha, you ever seen road rallying? We are made to go the long, tight way around a grass triangle in the mouth of a countryside junctions, often the roads aren't wide enough for anything else lol! That and plotting and navigating the correct route while competing, are the big challenges on road rallies.

Thanks again for the advise