Head Gasket Gone?

[Nazlfc]

Hi Everyone,

I've just come back from a local garage I use with some bad news and am really worried with diagnosis and I could do with all the help and advice from the great guys on this forum.

BACKGROUND OF PROBLEMS

My car SEAT Toledo TDI 2001 Y plate that I have owned for just over a month has been showing some signs of concern. On a couple of occasions the temperature guage has reached maximum and each of those occasions (both on motorways) I have stopped switched the engine off and open the coolant expansion tank cap (not safe I know but I needed to know what the problem was). There was a lot of steam coming out of the tank. I screwed the cap back and let the car cool down for about 20 minutes. I should have gone home as on each occasion I was only 10 miles or so away from home. However, I proceeded to drive to my destinations the first time 250 miles and the second 35 miles and on both occasions the temp guage was pointing to 90-95 degrees (constant). I have also checked the area around the oil filler cap and the oil and there is no white mayo like residue (as concerned it could be the head gasket) oil is thick and black as expected. (BTW, there was a little water loss in the coolant expansion tank but not significant amounts, I think)

As this has happened on a couple of occasions in my month long ownership I had to get this looked at to see if there is a major problem on the horizon and so today I took the car to the garage.

The garage looked for leaks in the coolant system and there were none after putting the car on the ramp. They then opened the coolant expansion tanks cap whilst the car was running and whoosh pressured air was released. This was the also case on the two occasions when I open the cap when I had to stop. Pressured air has also been released when the cap was removed in the morning prior to starting the car (whilst the engine was cold). The diagnosis by the garage was that the head gasket is gone and needs skimming. Not the news I wanted to hear so I went to another garage and explained the above symptoms and without hesitation the garage agreed 90% possibility that the head gasket has gone (although he was close to closing time so could not check to confirm)

On top of that I've had problems with the climate control system as it does not emit hot air even when set to HI and blowing at the highest (don't know if this is related)

Please can anyone confirm if the garage is correct as I am a little scpetical since the typical symptoms of head gasket failure are not showing on this car. I have read on other posts that there is a possibility of faults such as a faulty temp sensor, water pump problem or an air lock.

Your help and advice will be really appreciated and I could do with some advice to allay my concerns and fears.

My apologies for the long winded essay type post but I had to put as much detail as possible to help everyone with an informed response.


Thanks in Advance

 

[Viking]

Stop taking the coolant bottle top off when the car is hot!

When water (or coolant) gets hot it expands, so of course there's going to be pressure inside the coolant bottle. There always is when it's hot. That's no way to diagnose anything. The thing to look for is are you losing coolant regularly when it overheats? From what you've said I presume not. Does it overheat when you're just tripping round town or on slow journeys? Again I suspect it doesn't.

When cold, start the engine and then take the coolant bottle top off, and ask a mate to give it some revs. Does coolant flow into and out of the coolant bottle? You might find it easier to take the hose off the side of the bottle and hold it in the top instead, then you can see what's going on. If there's no flow (and I suspect there won't be) then I would be looking at the water pump. Your symptoms point more to that than a head gasket.

If you really want to be sure, then ask a decent garage to do a sniff test on the coolant to check for exhaust gas contamination. If they don't know what that means, find a garage who know what they're doing. If there's exhaust gas in the coolant then you're probably looking at the head gasket.

If it's the water pump then get the timing belt (and rollers/tensioner) changed and water pump at the same time. Belt has to come off to replace the water pump, see.

 

[meltonlad]

mate i thought my HG had gone few weeks back... same as you i had boiling water/steam coming from expansion tank, loss of water, no warm air. but mine was only a fooked water pump. easy way to check this is when COLD remove the thermostat housing, remove thermostat and then stick your finger in the hole and to the left and you will feel the pump. mine was broken in two. when was your cambelt done ?? and was the water pump changed at the same time ??

 

[Viking]

And another thing to be aware of. Skimming a TDI head is not a good idea. Petrol engines can be done if necessary, but skimming a diesel head increases the compression ratio and things go wrong as a result. Skimming heads is invariably done by garages in the hope they can fix a problem, and all they do is bugger the head for you. If they can convince you to part with your money to have it done, then they'll make a bit of money on that aswell.

 

[Slimy]

And another thing to be aware of. Skimming a TDI head is not a good idea. Petrol engines can be done if necessary, but skimming a diesel head increases the compression ratio and things go wrong as a result. Skimming heads is invariably done by garages in the hope they can fix a problem, and all they do is bugger the head for you. If they can convince you to part with your money to have it done, then they'll make a bit of money on that aswell.

I totally agree, in fact I don't think I've ever heard of a diesel engine having it's head skimmed. I believe diesel engines rely on compression ratios for ignition, if you start changing them then things will go very peculiar. And a turbo makes it even more critical.

However, I have replaced head gaskets without skimming the head, and it's worked fine. So if it does end up being the gasket then just do that and don't touch the head.

I've also found that if you release the coolant cap while it's hot, you can introduce air into the coolant which then settles at the highest point. The problem with that is the highest point is usually where the temperature gauge is, and if it measures air rather than water the reading will be wrong. So you've continued your journey with a temperature gauge showing ok, and chances are it wasn't!

The problem you have is that a head gasket is a low parts cost but high labour cost, so a garage would love to get the work. I think their diagnosis is being a bit quick based on their profit margin. I would agree with the other two, a water pump failure would give the same issues that you're seeing.

 

[GrayT]

I agree with the previous posts. Water pump would be my first guess. Also check the fans are working. Your longer runs (if not stop start) would have benefited from air cooling the radiator through the grill as a result of your speed. You are likely to notice the problem with either water pump or fans more in stop/start traffic and in warmer temperatures.

 

[Muttley]

Nazlfc wrote


On top of that I've had problems with the climate control system as it does not emit hot air even when set to HI and blowing at the highest (don't know if this is related)

It could be. This can be a symptom of low coolant levels, which inhibits circulation round the heater matrix first (Heater matrix is usually the highest part of the coolant circuit).

But if the water pump is on the way out, it may not be able to produce much circulation through the heater matrix either.

 

[Nazlfc]

Thank you guys for your advice. As I have been owner of the car for only 1 month, I don't have the details of when the cambelt or waterpump was changed if ever. However, would I expect there to be pressure in the coolant expansion tank when the engine is COLD having not been turned on for more than 12 hours? I have opened the cap on a couple occasions whilst the car has been cold for over 12hours with pressure being released as soon the cap is opened. Does this still indicate a head gasket failure as per the garages diagnosis?

If it is the water pump how much is it approximately to fix? What other work can be thrown in i.e. cambelt work.

Thanks again and any further advice will be appreciated.

 

[meltonlad]

IF its the water pump then the cambelt would have to come off also. you shouls always change water pump when cambelt done.... ive just had mine done on a AGN engine total cost £245. your expansion cap could be fooked hense why its holding the pressure and not auto releaseing when hot.... have you got hot air when heater turned onto hi ?

 

[Viking]

My car has been parked up outside the house for a couple of days and I just went out and loosened the coolant bottle top. No pressure. But that doesn't mean anything at all as I don't have a problem so ignore the fact that yours may or may not hiss when you loosen the cap. It may even be a vacuum hiss you're hearing due to constant removal of the cap in the hope you're going to learn something from it. Only open the cap if you need to top up the coolant, otherwise leave the bloody thing shut.

 

[Nazlfc]

Hot air

IF its the water pump then the cambelt would have to come off also. you shouls always change water pump when cambelt done.... ive just had mine done on a AGN engine total cost £245. your expansion cap could be fooked hense why its holding the pressure and not auto releaseing when hot.... have you got hot air when heater turned onto hi ?

I could not get hot air even when turned to HI and with blower blowing at the highest whilst the temp guage showing at 90 degrees and for journeys upto 40 minutes. However, I did get some heat coming on the 250 mile trip (4-5 hours).

I've got no leaks in the expansion tank or any where else. So I am stumped.

Meltonlad, I have read a thread on your recent experience which sounds similar to mine. Yours turned out to be a water pump and not a head. I wonder if that's the problem I have. How did the garage conclude that was the problem? Is there a way for them assess this without taking the car apart. At the moment I really want to rule the head gasket as being the problem. As mine is a Turbo Diesel and the posts from others in this thread (thanks for this guys) suggesting that the head may not be the problem gives me some reassurance. All I can say is the car is running fine and I just want some heat to come out when the climate control is set to a reasonable setting. Meanwhile I'll keep an eye on the water level in the expansion tank to see water loss. I have also recently bought some G12 plus plus from the local SEAT dealership but didn't want to add this until I know what the problem os for sure.

 

[meltonlad]

i found out it was the pump. all i did was to remove the thermostat housing then remove the thermostat and then with your finger stick it in the hole feel to the left and you could feel the pump. mine was broken in two and i could feel the pump in two. but saying that im not 100% sure that its the same lay out as your engine. if you follow your bottom rad hose it should go to the thermo housing ( i think ). if it is the pump them change the cambelt at the same time.

 

[GrayT]

If you haven't already please also check the fans in front of the rad - switch the air con on and off with the engine running and bonnet up to have a look (sorry if that's obvious). With the air con on the slow speed fan should always spin as far as I'm aware. If the fan isn't working that may mean your aircon isn't and if the high speed fan doesn't kick in when your engine overheats it could relate to that issue too. When you overheated before can you remember if the fan was on - with the temperatures you were getting they should have been even with the engine switched off?

 

[Nazlfc]

Thanks meltonlad, I'll try and check out whether it is the pump (as most others have also suggested) here's me keeping my fingers crossed its that at the very worst and not the head (as mentioned by viking and slimy). Even better would be the fact its an air lock in the radiator and coolant system that can be resolved by doing a complete flush and topped up with G12 coolant and water mix (as suggested by mutley).

Thanks again.

 

[Nazlfc]

Radiator Fan

If you haven't already please also check the fans in front of the rad - switch the air con on and off with the engine running and bonnet up to have a look (sorry if that's obvious). With the air con on the slow speed fan should always spin as far as I'm aware. If the fan isn't working that may mean your aircon isn't and if the high speed fan doesn't kick in when your engine overheats it could relate to that issue too. When you overheated before can you remember if the fan was on - with the temperatures you were getting they should have been even with the engine switched off?

Hi GrayT, to be honest that's one thing (checking the fan operation) I did not pay attention to on the 2 occasions where I had seen the temperature guage reach maximum. However, I'll try what you have suggested and see where I go.

Thanks.

 

[GrayT]

Any news on this?

 

[Nazlfc]

Coolant

Any news on this?

Hi GrayT,

My apologies for not posting anything for the past 2 weeks. I've been away so not had a chance to get this looked at. I was wondering whether I should flush the radiator and coolant system top up with G12 plus plus coolant and see what happens first before I go to the garage that can do a pressure test. Trouble is I'm not sure how to flush the coolant system to enable me to put new coolant and water. The colour of the liquid in the coolant expansion tank is brown and I'm not sure what that is (it was like this when I bought it).

Any instructions on how to first flush the existing coolant so that I can put G12 in would be of real help.

Thanks.

 

[Bclowes86]

Sorry to jump on your thread bug did u find out what the problem was I have similar problem but has never gone the whole distance of the temperature gauge its went up about two marks and came back down but only on two occasions there is pressure in my coolant system too and when the car is running the coolant pipes are hard runs fine not had no loss of water for last 3 days

 

[Nazlfc]

Head Gasket Repair

Hi

I had to have my head gasket repaired which costed £650 including part like new cambelt and water pump. Since then I have had no problems and it has worked fine.

Thanks

 

[bonser2k16]

head hasket failure

hi everyone,

I have a 1.4 petrol leon and its burning quite a substantial amount of oil. using alot of coolant also, when i check the dipstick there is a brown residue on it and when i take off the filler cap is a white milky substance. doesnt particularry tick over very well and a couple of months back kept stalling when aprouching junctions etc. im leaning towards head gasket or rocker cover gasket as the top of the spark plugs are being filled with oil.

am i right to assume one or both of these gaskets have blown and ho easy of a fix is it as i do not really want to spend £1000+ in a garage.

and answers will be extreamly helpful.

thanks

scott.