Massive difference in AFR's between standard pump and 4bar S3 on mine @ 87k on the clock.

Only reason for 4 bar i can see if the extra fuelling required when shifting more air on a k03s?
 
Massive difference in AFR's between standard pump and 4bar S3 on mine @ 87k on the clock.

Only reason for 4 bar i can see if the extra fuelling required when shifting more air on a k03s?

but it is'nt required Phil.... software can use stock injectors to deliver whats required on CC and my own for example, where others reach for the 4bar fpr... but why?

If you can adjust overall fueling on something like unisettings, which will have the same effect as just throwing in a 4bar reggy, which works the pump harder, then the better solution to me is not to work a pump harder than it has to when its always going to flow less when it has to push more pressure.

I personally think its a throw back to the old 4bar maps revo did before stage 2's were named and dreamt up. (4bar codes and stage 2 were the same thing, just rebranded to make them appear new)

To me. adjusting fueling in software is the technically more correct way of achieving it. Its not like the stock injectors cant flow it, because they clearly can.

Larger reggys are to get more out of an injector size, to save you buying bigger injectors. BUT doing this adds more load to the pump, so anything weak will suffer this etra load.

ALSO, for those who dont realise, the fuel pressure regulators are rising rate regulators, so the 4bar is 4bar rated at zero manifold pressure (atmos, 1000mb ish ), and when boost is developed this is added to the fpr, so if you run 1.5bar boost your pump is trying to flow at 4bar + 1.5bar = 5.5bar pressure, whilst you are asking it for max flow... so its not too surprising tired pumps aint going to cope too well. Worse in ibiza's as you cant even reliably see any lean conditions from the lack of wideband afr measurement.

Bosch 044 shown as a comparison of a good (upgrade pump, and the flow reduction with pressure)
580%20254%20044%20flow%20chart.jpg
 
Agree that i dont think its needed but surely it does give a little more headroom on k03s equipped cars rather than running them flat out. If you look at my logs showing the duty cycle using a 4bar, which correct me if im wrong, dumps in about 12% more fuel compared to 3bar, shows mine @4bar is running 92% duty. I know the ecu can adapt in/out around 20% before it throws a lean/rich code which means they could acheive the corerct fuelling just at a higher duty. Or have i misunderstood something?


Bill, I also i noticed whilst doing many dyno runs this weekend that using channel 2 on lemmiwinks that this has zero affect on AFR . Does that mean that the only way to adjust fuelling without access to maps would be through scaling or hardware?
 
Agree that i dont think its needed but surely it does give a little more headroom on k03s equipped cars rather than running them flat out. If you look at my logs showing the duty cycle using a 4bar, which correct me if im wrong, dumps in about 12% more fuel compared to 3bar, shows mine @4bar is running 92% duty. I know the ecu can adapt in/out around 20% before it throws a lean/rich code which means they could acheive the corerct fuelling just at a higher duty. Or have i misunderstood something?


Bill, I also i noticed whilst doing many dyno runs this weekend that using channel 2 on lemmiwinks that this has zero affect on AFR . Does that mean that the only way to adjust fuelling without access to maps would be through scaling or hardware?

"running them flat out"
- or running the pump flat out.. injectors will be fine, pump will sag - I know what I would choose personally.

main fuel adjust has direct effect when I use it Phil. I use it often and increasing fuel under load trims with unisettings

the point I am trying to make, is asking for higher pressure on a stock pump is going to risk that pump not delivering enough. Reduce the load on it and it will flow more not less if its struggling. In a dumb ass ibiza with its narrowband ecu you are mostly blind to it tho, which is'nt nice.

you are right on duty cycle's are high.. which is an undersize injector ultimately. I have logged me7, mine and a few customer cars, and seen a reported >100% duty cycle on them, but afr's were ok. on standalone i am not reccomended to use >85% and to use an appropriate sized injector.

If you have an uprated fuel pump (and I mean 044, walbro etc) then the fuel delivery should not be an issue, with 4bar, but stock pumps dont like it, and running stage 2 with it, risks lean/melted engine in worst case scenario, when that pump goes weak.

on block 001, If I add 10% more fuel I will see lambda try and pull it back out again, to its maximum of 25% limit.. and when it cycles, 032 trims adjust by its attempts

seems you are on the edge of injector on your setup to me. nearly max'd
 
No i totally agree with the pump sagging, ive seen it on mine to the point where the operator refused to run my car as it was running so lean under full load. Swapped out the pump for a “4bar” one and all seems pretty good from looking at my logs and graphs from the RR day two weeks ago.

Main fuel adjust? Channel 10?

I was in a situation this weekend when we looked at Jamies 2871 ibiza and the fuelling was varied to say the least, was running lean under full load and initial boost then richening up the rev range and would get worse on anything close to the requested 1.5bar, so I thought we’d add 6% to channel 2 – fuelling on increasing loads to try and take out the lean-ness but it made zero difference to the point where we tried 20% extra which also made no difference. It was a nightmare to try and keep it under 12.5:1 on anything more than 20psi and if we did it would run more like 9.5:1 top end. In the end after about 10-12 runs we managed to get it at a safe level fuelling wise and run best part of 360bhp/310lbs/ft, maf readings were peaking at arounf 280g/s. Lucky the car had a Apexi AVCR as the car running off the N75 was running incredibly lean due to the high boost it produced. I have plenty of logs and graphs if you want me to post.
 
No i totally agree with the pump sagging, ive seen it on mine to the point where the operator refused to run my car as it was running so lean under full load. Swapped out the pump for a “4bar” one and all seems pretty good from looking at my logs and graphs from the RR day two weeks ago.

Main fuel adjust? Channel 10?

I was in a situation this weekend when we looked at Jamies 2871 ibiza and the fuelling was varied to say the least, was running lean under full load and initial boost then richening up the rev range and would get worse on anything close to the requested 1.5bar, so I thought we’d add 6% to channel 2 – fuelling on increasing loads to try and take out the lean-ness but it made zero difference to the point where we tried 20% extra which also made no difference. It was a nightmare to try and keep it under 12.5:1 on anything more than 20psi and if we did it would run more like 9.5:1 top end. In the end after about 10-12 runs we managed to get it at a safe level fuelling wise and run best part of 360bhp/310lbs/ft, maf readings were peaking at arounf 280g/s. Lucky the car had a Apexi AVCR as the car running off the N75 was running incredibly lean due to the high boost it produced. I have plenty of logs and graphs if you want me to post.

unisetting.jpg


Primary enrich on block 10 yea.
that cars had so much pissing about done to it and several owers, it could be any number of things since it was mapped originally for matt. sounds like you had your hands full. sooner you than me. sounds like the map vs car are well out of kilter, so broad brush adjustments only move the problem about. good luck with it.
:whistle:

post the logs if you like.. be of casual interest
 
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Thanks bill, it was a right hand full indeed, even if we followed the requested 1.5bar it would lean out sooo bad on initial spool, to get that much power out of it with that fuelling i was quite proud of consider what it got on the dyno like. We ended up leaving the fuelling alone as we couldnt get it where we would like as, taking nearly 5.25° of timing and having the boost spike lower than requested and hold it to red line.

I'll post up graphs and logs soon for you no probs.
 
ok fitted my new lcr pump great big difference but now fuel guage is showing rather low, i put in 30 bucks and it came to just half a tank i know i need to change the sender but not sure how to go about doing it?
 
What formula do you use to determine injector duty cycle and what vagcom channels give me the data to put into the formula, thanks.
 
told you before we put it on mate ill come down saturday and we will change senders ;)
 
i think its ok mate as we took out time puting it in ect . bill would my car be ok to run one of these as my pump has done 90k :(
 
yeah i took day off as my ball joint callapsed leaving your place :censored:
 
yep so day again on car in nice sunshine this time tho lol.

i want to get a new fuel pump just waiting for the go ahead off bill first . im looking into a lcr one but does any one have proper information on how to uprate to lcr one but keep the same readings as ive had a read on a thread on here a while back and it saids you have to change senders to have same readings correct me if im wrong please . just dont want to buy one and gives me wrong readings . many thanks guys
 
ye i think u need to take old one apart and merge it wid new pump somehow