oh, dear............(oops)

dmjw01

Upstanding Member
Jul 28, 2005
442
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Woking, UK
www.dmjwilliams.co.uk
danregs said:
oh and its the SERIES resistance that gives the LED bulb setup the correct LOAD resistance, so they are one in the same
I disagree.

In order to put the lighting circuit under the correct load, you need a small enough resistance to generate a large enough current. But if you put a small enough resistance in series with an LED, the current will burn out the LED. You simply can't put all that load current through the LED because it'll kill the LED.

The LED bulbs therefore have a moderately large internal resistor in series with the LEDs. There's no getting away from that. If they didn't, the LEDs would die in a fraction of a second - you can't just put 12V across an LED and expect it to survive.

because the LED's have such a tiny resistance
And this is where the confusion lies - I'm convinced we're talking at cross-purposes. The LEDs themselves have a tiny resistance: I agree. But the LED bulb assembly has a fairly large resistance due to its built-in series resistor. That resistor means that it puts the lighting circuit under a tiny load.

The only way to increase the load on the lighting circuit is to wire up a load resistor ACROSS the LED bulb's contacts (i.e. in parallel). You'd choose a resistor which is substantially less than the LED bulb's internal resistance. This creates a larger current that bypasses the LED bulb, thus satisfying the expected load of the lighting circuit.

By my reckoning, the internal series resistance of the LED bulb muddyboots mentioned is about 130 ohms. I reckon you'd need a load resistor of about 7 ohms (give or take) across that to create enough load to fool the lighting circuit into believing there's a conventional bulb fitted.
 

danregs

Leon Cupra 20VT
Oct 26, 2004
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Exeter
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lol i think we have both been talking about the same thing but managed to confuse each other terribly

i had to read your paragraph intently to be able to understand it. we've just been trying to explain it it different ways i think

i would totally agree with what you just wrote!

i've just done some calculations and you would need a series resistance of 470 ohms, giving a load resistance of 7.12 ohms (you'd need to use an E24 series resistor, so 6.8 ohms). those calcs are using a guestimate of the resistance of a filament bulb (which i would say is about 7ohms when hot)

think we're prob on the same wavelength!
 

BlackFR

Full Member
Jan 22, 2002
1,724
5
Not too far away
Don't forget your 7R (6R8 NPF) would need to be dissapating around 21W of heat when you connect it as a shunt resistor across the LED's.

LED's would sale the E mark testing as it covers EMC only.

http://www.hants.gov.uk/regulatory/busadvice/auto.html

"Equipment that does not need testing...

...

Passive equipment. This means equipment that cannot emit or be affected by electromagnetic emissions. This includes spark plugs and ‘passive’ antennae. "

LED's aren't renowed for their EMC emissions:D

They still made us E Mark essentially a relay in a box though.
 

TheOtherSimon

Full Member
Jul 12, 2004
454
0
BlackFR said:
LED's would sale the E mark testing as it covers EMC only.

http://www.hants.gov.uk/regulatory/busadvice/auto.html

"Equipment that does not need testing...

Only if they are Electronic Sub Assemblies. LED lights fall under the Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations 1989 (not the Road Traffic Act), which prohibits the use of anything except incandescent bulbs. However the UK cannot refuse to accept a light assembly built under ECE Regulation 48 (Lighting Installation on the vehicle), since it complies with EU law. So as long as the LED lights meet EU regulations and hence are E marked, they are legal.

Simon.
 

NEG

Guest
Just for those who would like to know......

If it takes 5mA to forward an LED for full light output your series res will be 12v / 0.005 = 2.4K

16 in Parallel would draw 80mA so series R = 12v / 0.080 = 150R

The resistance of the bulb is determined by Volts sqrd / Watts so (12 x 12) / 21watts = 6.86R

http://www.the12volt.com/ohm/ohmslaw.asp Is a good web site to learn more.

You may be able to get away with using a higher shunt resistance to keep the ECU happy, say 15W, this means you could use a 10R shunt. Use an aluminium cased wire wound resistor from Maplin or some other outlet like RS components

However, I don't like the idea of a constant current draw, the resistor will need to be rated at x3 21W (or 15W if it works) for reliablity, it will still get hot put added load on the battery/alternator and probably would need to be mounted on the car body to help dissipate the heat. All because you want to use LED's.............Hmmmm.
 
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dmjw01

Upstanding Member
Jul 28, 2005
442
0
Woking, UK
www.dmjwilliams.co.uk
NEG said:
I don't like the idea of a constant current draw
It's only a constant current draw when the light is switched on. You wire the load resistor across the terminals of the bulb. It should be exactly the same draw as the original fit bulb.

But I agree, having to fit load resistors sucks a bit.
 

danregs

Leon Cupra 20VT
Oct 26, 2004
427
0
Exeter
www.bugproject.co.uk
NEG said:
The resistance of the bulb is determined by Volts sqrd / Watts so (12 x 12) / 21watts = 6.86R


this is correct (6.8 ohms, as myself and dmjw01 both said) but...

the series resistor required to power most LED's is recommended to be 470R to 1K

i have always used 470R
 
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