Why there will never be a production of F2 panels

[Dave_R]

lol forgot about the motosport rims bbs do but I was thinking of "euro" that you want

Only thing that outs me off this kit is how you widen the track.... I wouldn't go near huge spacers! So you would need to change the rear and front suspension set up. Not a bad thing as you can do some great things with the set up for handling

 

[suj]

lol forgot about the motosport rims bbs do but I was thinking of "euro" that you want

Only thing that outs me off this kit is how you widen the track.... I wouldn't go near huge spacers! So you would need to change the rear and front suspension set up. Not a bad thing as you can do some great things with the set up for handling

haha see i know my stuff, no but in reality my RM's were so light, not even kidding, a hell of a lot lighter then my ronal multi's! (dare i say half the weight?)
and i would love some BBS motorsports, shame they go for 1.8k+

yeah but i wouldn't be racing, so it wouldn't be that bad for me, but for you i agree you'd need alot of modifications to get right
hubcentric spacers are quite good, and alot of motorsport boys do use them, but i agree a "proper" set up would be ideal

well like dan has a vr6 front sub, and will be wide, could you not do the same? (hasn't f2_stu done it too?)
now you just need to work out a rear way to increase the distance

 

[Dave_R]

Yea the VR6 set up upfront will help up and I think you can do the same at the rear with the VR6 and a lil help from spacers (but no where near as much as you would with the standard set up). Stu's done a good idea with the rear beam that looks interesting but to be honest I haven't long spent out on the car bodywork wise so I'm not going to rip off all the panels and start again plus after collecting my car from AH Fabriciations last night.... f*ck the car handles well, I've forgot.... even overtook a boxster on the outside lane of a sharp corner when we both give it some, I'm loving them V70A's I've got now and still have the corner weight to set up again on monday

 

[Presha]

Yeah i agree with Suj, a nice factory lookin wide arch, either pre or facelift bumpers, standard spoiler and full interior, nice stance, would suit alot of rims in my opinion (a "euro'd" mk2 golf rallye inspired look id say lol)
Where as if i was going motorsport/rally look etc, id go with the f2 bumpers and spoiler and go with more motorsporty rim, cage, the whole hog lol

As for widening the track, as you said i've got the vr front subframe etc to help but it its only an inch overall plus or minus abit because of the difference in hub and the way it's mounted (not sure lol) so i think you would need abit more to fill the proper f2 arches, personally dont like spacers lol ive spaced the stub axels off the standard ibiza rear subframe to make up what the vr front adds, but again i dont think this will fill those arches. Could make the rest up playing around with et of 3 piece splits if your made of money lol or start sectioning and welding subframes/driveshafts together which could cause engine mount problems etc custom ARBs and adjustable top mounts would be needed too probably.

If money was no object and i wanted to build a proper f2 replica, id get a haldex quattro/4motion system from which ever car matched the f2 dimension wise and for the engine, something like a 2.0l tfsi or 1.8 20vt highly tuned or vr6/r32 twin turbo lol proper rally car style

 

[Chris Eyre]

I think you can do the same at the rear with the VR6 and a lil help from spacers (but no where near as much as you would with the standard set up).

Just to clarify that the Golf VR6 beam isn't the answer - the perception is Mk3s are wider, but the whole lot has been unravelled gradually and it turns out it's not the case. Info here.

It's slightly academic as fairly intricate surgery is required to get a Golf 2/3/Toledo rear beam on an Ibiza.

Really the factory Ibiza Evo 1 rally cars were no different from stub axle spacers, just they jigged them properly, and welded the lot up. The structure of the beam didn't change (Evo 2 beams were completely different).

If money was no object and i wanted to build a proper f2 replica, id get a haldex quattro/4motion system from which ever car matched the f2 dimension wise and for the engine, something like a 2.0l tfsi or 1.8 20vt highly tuned or vr6/r32 twin turbo lol proper rally car style

You're almost talking about this car - what the Cordoba WRC should have been if SEAT had been sharper with the WRC regs and applied for a length dispensation like Peugeot did with the 206 WRC:

Basically F2 front end - same as the Cordoba WRC anyway - rally transmission, rather than Haldex + stroked (2.2litre 16v ) rather than 16v turbo. More info here

 

[suj]

Yeah i agree with Suj, a nice factory lookin wide arch, either pre or facelift bumpers, standard spoiler and full interior, nice stance, would suit alot of rims in my opinion (a "euro'd" mk2 golf rallye inspired look id say lol)
Where as if i was going motorsport/rally look etc, id go with the f2 bumpers and spoiler and go with more motorsporty rim, cage, the whole hog lol

As for widening the track, as you said i've got the vr front subframe etc to help but it its only an inch overall plus or minus abit because of the difference in hub and the way it's mounted (not sure lol) so i think you would need abit more to fill the proper f2 arches, personally dont like spacers lol ive spaced the stub axels off the standard ibiza rear subframe to make up what the vr front adds, but again i dont think this will fill those arches. Could make the rest up playing around with et of 3 piece splits if your made of money lol or start sectioning and welding subframes/driveshafts together which could cause engine mount problems etc custom ARBs and adjustable top mounts would be needed too probably.

If money was no object and i wanted to build a proper f2 replica, id get a haldex quattro/4motion system from which ever car matched the f2 dimension wise and for the engine, something like a 2.0l tfsi or 1.8 20vt highly tuned or vr6/r32 twin turbo lol proper rally car style

yeah exactly mate, limiting factor on these ibiza's are the arches, i know that i could get some rolling/pulling/flaring, but then i'd have stressed the material, and would need a paint job to rectify the paint cracks
and would probably cost a bit to get it to that stage!

but with a wide arch kit (not fibre glass) i save on the archwork costs, but now i gotta pay for blending/painting

so probably works out same, and i get a cool wider ibiza

hmmm...vr6tt? DO IT DAN!!!!!
with a haldex too? hubba hubba, your dad won't be able to keep up

 

[Presha]

Just to clarify that the Golf VR6 beam isn't the answer - the perception is Mk3s are wider, but the whole lot has been unravelled gradually and it turns out it's not the case. Info here.

It's slightly academic as fairly intricate surgery is required to get a Golf 2/3/Toledo rear beam on an Ibiza.

Really the factory Ibiza Evo 1 rally cars were no different from stub axle spacers, just they jigged them properly, and welded the lot up. The structure of the beam didn't change (Evo 2 beams were completely different).

You sure about the beams not being longer on a Mk3 Golf VR6 compared to an Ibiza? I've had both in front of me and measured both stub face to face etc and at the mounting points and although i cant remember the sizes off the top of my head im more than sure it was longer at both points (because i was going to use it if it was the same size across the mounting points as the Ibiza) but i've stuck to spacing the stub axles off the beam face (using proper lazer cut profiles taken off the stub axle itself and will be welded to the beam just for extra precaution)

As you say though it would be a pain to get a Mk3 rear beam on an Ibiza, the way they mount it totally different (its mounted onto 2 seperate plates either end that then bolts on the car) plus there are 2 extra brake flexy pipes that go over the beam on a Mk3, where as its all solid lines on the beam on a Ibiza. Also the way the suspension is mounted onto the beam is different so you'd have to run Mk3 rear shocks etc.

 

[Presha]

hmmm...vr6tt? DO IT DAN!!!!!
with a haldex too? hubba hubba, your dad won't be able to keep up

I'd love to need to win the lottery though lmao or become very rich in the future somehow lol if i do though i promise i will build one

 

[Chris Eyre]

You sure about the beams not being longer on a Mk3 Golf VR6 compared to an Ibiza? I've had both in front of me and measured both stub face to face etc and at the mounting points and although i cant remember the sizes off the top of my head im more than sure it was longer at both points (because i was going to use it if it was the same size across the mounting points as the Ibiza) but i've stuck to spacing the stub axles off the beam face (using proper lazer cut profiles taken off the stub axle itself and will be welded to the beam just for extra precaution)

As you say though it would be a pain to get a Mk3 rear beam on an Ibiza, the way they mount it totally different (its mounted onto 2 seperate plates either end that then bolts on the car) plus there are 2 extra brake flexy pipes that go over the beam on a Mk3, where as its all solid lines on the beam on a Ibiza. Also the way the suspension is mounted onto the beam is different so you'd have to run Mk3 rear shocks etc.

Sorry, that's slightly unclear of me!

What I was trying to say is grabbing a beam off a "Mk3 VR6" is no different from grabbing a beam off a Mk2, hence the link to the beam thread. Mk3 VR6 front end, fine though!

The fact that they don't fit Ibizas makes it all academic. Imagine the headache, moving captive studs around on a floor pan in that area of a car? Fabricators will do it in a sneeze, but it's serious work otherwise - people have looked at it, and walked away.

Hope that clears it up!

 

[F2 Stu]

The fact that they don't fit Ibizas makes it all academic. Imagine the headache, moving captive studs around on a floor pan in that area of a car? Fabricators will do it in a sneeze, but it's serious work otherwise - people have looked at it, and walked away.

Hope that clears it up!

Make up a spit roast for the car and turn it on its roof. Access not a problem

 

[jenk]

Evo 2 rear beam would be the ultimate requirement for wide track, fancy looking piece of kit.

 

[Chris Eyre]

Make up a spit roast for the car and turn it on its roof. Access not a problem

Indeed - makes it far easier!

Drill into the box section from inside the car, or take the captives off at the surface, and add flat more plate with new captives?

Evo 2 rear beam would be the ultimate requirement for wide track, fancy looking piece of kit.

Very much - they don't actually bolt on though. The Evo 2 took advantage of the FIA's radius mounting tolerances of 25mm, so the lot was optimised, Which way, I don't know, but I'm guessing rear-wards.

Those Evo2s are truly special, partly why they cost so much, 10 years after they were pensioned off by the works teams. The last secondhand Evo 2 beam that was up for sale, I was quoted EUR 13,000 !

 

[andyj]

Pete (icecavern) stumbled across this info the other day, provides interesting reading with regards the reasoning behind using the Cordoba instead of the Ibiza (as Chris has already pointed out):

http://www.rallycars.com/Cars/Seat_WRC/Seat_WRC_2.html

 

[Chris Eyre]

^^ Just to flesh that out, though it's slightly OT:

You're almost talking about this car - what the Cordoba WRC should have been if SEAT had been sharper with the WRC regs and applied for a length dispensation like Peugeot did with the 206 WRC:

The detail is at the top of page 4 and makes for a frustrating read!

The story behind the company's choice of the Cordoba body is that of yet another classic FIA failure to apply their own rules. FIA WRC class rules state that a WRC car's base model cannot be shorter than 4000mm. Seat would have liked to build their WRC car around an Ibiza base. That was unfortunately impossible since the Ibiza body would not comply with the FIA rule hence the Cordoba choice.

The Cordoba body is too narrow to allow properly fitting all the required parts (i.e. central transmission tunnel, rear transmission, etc.) and its wheelbase is too short compared to its length. These facts render the WRC car less drivable and compliant to driver input especially so in tight corner terrain. But that's the FIA rule so Seat complied with it.

Imagine now the company's fury when one and a half years later the same FIA rules were transgressed by Peugeot who homologated the 206 as a WRC car. Note that the base 206 car is only 3835mm long!! and that the base Ibiza is 3855mm long. Of course Peugeot's power is more dominant than that of a company like Seat...well done once again FIA! So Seat ended up with a car that is the longest of all other WRC cars (except the Skoda Octavia) but has the shortest wheelbase of them all, not the ideal architecture to win.

 

[andyj]

yeah, I was surprised by that bit as well Chris

 

[Fl@pper]

is that why the 206 ran with ridiculously fat bumpers front and rear at first though ?

 

[Chris Eyre]

The 206 WRC was legitimised via the road-going Peugeot 206 GT homologation special, which had a few trimmings on it, but all that really mattered were the extended front and rear bumpers, to get it over 4 metres.

The pic from the rear is the best one - the rear bumper stands out a mile, but this is all I can find:

Link - AKA French International Assistance!!

Ironic, because when SEAT launched the Ibiza kitcar in 1995, there were initial delays homologating the kitcar variant options (VO papers), appended to the existing Group A homologation papers. I forget the exact story, but it was connected with not satisfying the FIA they'd produced enough bumper and wing kits (something along those lines).

Different rules, but all rule bending!!

 

[Fl@pper]

aye i found some - remember it now

can't blame em for doing it though - look what happened in the years after

 

[F2 Stu]

Ford did a simular trick with the mk1 focus wrc by Homo'ing it on the usa version wich had longer bumpers.

Somewhere they'res a picture of me wanting to kick the 206 WRC prototype thats in the peugeot museum in disgust for the reasons above!

 

[Chris Eyre]

Pains me to mention it, but Skoda did the same with the Fabia vRS