any ideas on what intercooler this is?
- Thread starter leedc5
- Start date
-
- Tags
- ideas intercooler
Jamie I can only go on the material I have studied online but my interpretation of the standard Forge FMIC piping is that it's very restrictive compared to other setups - i.e. the TT charge pipe route using 2.5" pipe.
One reason is that the diameter of the pipe work is not as wide as 63mm (and may not even be the same diameter from turbo to TB?) - but designing an intercooler is essentially a balancing act depending on what you want from it - i.e cooling vs flow.
A fast flowing intercooler may lead to zero pressure drop across the core but this won't cool the charge air temperature as much as another intercooler that slows the air as it passes through it to extract more heat (the whole purpose of the IC in the first place). So the trick is to find a balance between cooling and pressure drop.
This tends to be why people fall at the first hurdle of ordering a massive intercooler in the belief it will be the best. It *may* cool the best (depending on many many variables; core density, fin pitch, type of turbulators, surface area exposed to incoming air, thickness and grade of material used etc etc) and they may think it's working well when they log low intake temperatures but this hasn't taken into account how much time it's taken the air to fill the cooler, causing pressure drop and sometimes rich spikes - see http://www.fromsteve.net/tech/Intercooler-Sizing-Design-and-Implementation
A denser core will make more use of the air passing through the fins by slowing it down and hence extracting the most use from it. In extreme cases however this can have adverse effects on the engine cooling if the radiator is not getting enough air through from behind it, or if the intercooler is mounted too close to it where it's so thick. A thinner core will generally allow faster air flow but tends to rely on a greater surface area to compensate for the amount of heat it can transfer before exiting the cooler. If this extra surface area is hidden behind the bumper without ducting to incoming air then its overall contribution will be minimal, although admitedly still acting as a heatsink.
End tanks are another huge factor that many people fail to consider, not least where the pipes enter/exit the cooler. If you have a tall intercooler with the inlet/outlet at the very bottom of the end tanks then only a small percentage of the incoming air is actually going to flow through the top portion of the core (unless using deflectors for example). Another consideration is the volume of air entering the core, dependent upon the diameter of pipework used and density of the core. I.e if you use 63mm pipework but step down to a 40mm core then the air pressure will increase, forcing it through the intercooler more quickly than a smaller diameter inlet to a denser core. This second setup would cause the air to slow down and hence allow more time for heat transfer.
These are only touching upon a few design factors and I'm sure there's much more involved if you wanted to go more technical.
In my opinion, I see the standard Forge FMIC with the following Pros/Cons - but again this all depends on how you want to argue the balance between cooling and flow:
Pros:
-> Relatively thin core allows air to pass through quickly to the radiator, maintaining good overall engine cooling.
-> It has a large surface area to make the most of the incoming air through the bumper
-> Thin core allows air to pass through the core quickly, minimising pressure drop
-> The main reason most people go for it: it "looks good" and is easy to fit as a complete kit - not much messing around.
Cons:
-> Some of the core is hidden behind the bumper so it's cooling capabilities are limited
-> The inlet/outlet pipes enter the IC at the rear at 90 degree angles, restricting air flow. This could be argued as a good point as it slows the air down before entering the core to ensure that more heat is extracted from the charge air. Again - flow vs cooling
-> The inlet/outlet pipes are located at the bottom of a tall core so it is unlikely that the top portion of the intercooler is directly contributing very much, expecially as it's also obstructed by the bumper.
-> The pipework diameter and bends utilise the OE route which is more restrictive that the TT route using larger diameter pipe work.
These interpretations are simply based upon the research I have performed online and by contacting some of the major suppliers/fabricators. My argument is that if you're willing to spend a bit of time messing around then you can improve upon the performance of the Forge (and Pro Alloy) kits substantially, using mandrel bent pipework for optimal flow and a shorter, thicker core that slows the air and extracts more heat, and is more directly exposed to incoming air through the bottom of the bumper - much like the AM kit.
<discuss>
One reason is that the diameter of the pipe work is not as wide as 63mm (and may not even be the same diameter from turbo to TB?) - but designing an intercooler is essentially a balancing act depending on what you want from it - i.e cooling vs flow.
A fast flowing intercooler may lead to zero pressure drop across the core but this won't cool the charge air temperature as much as another intercooler that slows the air as it passes through it to extract more heat (the whole purpose of the IC in the first place). So the trick is to find a balance between cooling and pressure drop.
This tends to be why people fall at the first hurdle of ordering a massive intercooler in the belief it will be the best. It *may* cool the best (depending on many many variables; core density, fin pitch, type of turbulators, surface area exposed to incoming air, thickness and grade of material used etc etc) and they may think it's working well when they log low intake temperatures but this hasn't taken into account how much time it's taken the air to fill the cooler, causing pressure drop and sometimes rich spikes - see http://www.fromsteve.net/tech/Intercooler-Sizing-Design-and-Implementation
A denser core will make more use of the air passing through the fins by slowing it down and hence extracting the most use from it. In extreme cases however this can have adverse effects on the engine cooling if the radiator is not getting enough air through from behind it, or if the intercooler is mounted too close to it where it's so thick. A thinner core will generally allow faster air flow but tends to rely on a greater surface area to compensate for the amount of heat it can transfer before exiting the cooler. If this extra surface area is hidden behind the bumper without ducting to incoming air then its overall contribution will be minimal, although admitedly still acting as a heatsink.
End tanks are another huge factor that many people fail to consider, not least where the pipes enter/exit the cooler. If you have a tall intercooler with the inlet/outlet at the very bottom of the end tanks then only a small percentage of the incoming air is actually going to flow through the top portion of the core (unless using deflectors for example). Another consideration is the volume of air entering the core, dependent upon the diameter of pipework used and density of the core. I.e if you use 63mm pipework but step down to a 40mm core then the air pressure will increase, forcing it through the intercooler more quickly than a smaller diameter inlet to a denser core. This second setup would cause the air to slow down and hence allow more time for heat transfer.
These are only touching upon a few design factors and I'm sure there's much more involved if you wanted to go more technical.
In my opinion, I see the standard Forge FMIC with the following Pros/Cons - but again this all depends on how you want to argue the balance between cooling and flow:
Pros:
-> Relatively thin core allows air to pass through quickly to the radiator, maintaining good overall engine cooling.
-> It has a large surface area to make the most of the incoming air through the bumper
-> Thin core allows air to pass through the core quickly, minimising pressure drop
-> The main reason most people go for it: it "looks good" and is easy to fit as a complete kit - not much messing around.
Cons:
-> Some of the core is hidden behind the bumper so it's cooling capabilities are limited
-> The inlet/outlet pipes enter the IC at the rear at 90 degree angles, restricting air flow. This could be argued as a good point as it slows the air down before entering the core to ensure that more heat is extracted from the charge air. Again - flow vs cooling
-> The inlet/outlet pipes are located at the bottom of a tall core so it is unlikely that the top portion of the intercooler is directly contributing very much, expecially as it's also obstructed by the bumper.
-> The pipework diameter and bends utilise the OE route which is more restrictive that the TT route using larger diameter pipe work.
These interpretations are simply based upon the research I have performed online and by contacting some of the major suppliers/fabricators. My argument is that if you're willing to spend a bit of time messing around then you can improve upon the performance of the Forge (and Pro Alloy) kits substantially, using mandrel bent pipework for optimal flow and a shorter, thicker core that slows the air and extracts more heat, and is more directly exposed to incoming air through the bottom of the bumper - much like the AM kit.
<discuss>
Last edited:
core is good, spend the money converting it to single pass imho. will work better than forge one for less money. thicker core from memory
jamiebennett81
Guest
Jamie I can only go on the material I have studied online but my interpretation of the standard Forge FMIC piping is that it's very restrictive compared to other setups - i.e. the TT charge pipe route using 2.5" pipe.
One reason is that the diameter of the pipe work is not as wide as 63mm (and may not even be the same diameter from turbo to TB?) - but designing an intercooler is essentially a balancing act depending on what you want from it - i.e cooling vs flow.
A fast flowing intercooler may lead to zero pressure drop across the core but this won't cool the charge air temperature as much as another intercooler that slows the air as it passes through it to extract more heat (the whole purpose of the IC in the first place). So the trick is to find a balance between cooling and pressure drop.
This tends to be why people fall at the first hurdle of ordering a massive intercooler in the belief it will be the best. It *may* cool the best (depending on many many variables; core density, fin pitch, type of turbulators, surface area exposed to incoming air, thickness and grade of material used etc etc) and they may think it's working well when they log low intake temperatures but this hasn't taken into account how much time it's taken the air to fill the cooler, causing pressure drop and sometimes rich spikes - see http://www.fromsteve.net/tech/Intercooler-Sizing-Design-and-Implementation
A denser core will make more use of the air passing through the fins by slowing it down and hence extracting the most use from it. In extreme cases however this can have adverse effects on the engine cooling if the radiator is not getting enough air through from behind it, or if the intercooler is mounted too close to it where it's so thick. A thinner core will generally allow faster air flow but tends to rely on a greater surface area to compensate for the amount of heat it can transfer before exiting the cooler. If this extra surface area is hidden behind the bumper without ducting to incoming air then its overall contribution will be minimal, although admitedly still acting as a heatsink.
End tanks are another huge factor that many people fail to consider, not least where the pipes enter/exit the cooler. If you have a tall intercooler with the inlet/outlet at the very bottom of the end tanks then only a small percentage of the incoming air is actually going to flow through the top portion of the core (unless using deflectors for example). Another consideration is the volume of air entering the core, dependent upon the diameter of pipework used and density of the core. I.e if you use 63mm pipework but step down to a 40mm core then the air pressure will increase, forcing it through the intercooler more quickly than a smaller diameter inlet to a denser core. This second setup would cause the air to slow down and hence allow more time for heat transfer.
These are only touching upon a few design factors and I'm sure there's much more involved if you wanted to go more technical.
In my opinion, I see the standard Forge FMIC with the following Pros/Cons - but again this all depends on how you want to argue the balance between cooling and flow:
Pros:
-> Relatively thin core allows air to pass through quickly to the radiator, maintaining good overall engine cooling.
-> It has a large surface area to make the most of the incoming air through the bumper
-> Thin core allows air to pass through the core quickly, minimising pressure drop
-> The main reason most people go for it: it "looks good" and is easy to fit as a complete kit - not much messing around.
Cons:
-> Some of the core is hidden behind the bumper so it's cooling capabilities are limited
-> The inlet/outlet pipes enter the IC at the rear at 90 degree angles, restricting air flow. This could be argued as a good point as it slows the air down before entering the core to ensure that more heat is extracted from the charge air. Again - flow vs cooling
-> The inlet/outlet pipes are located at the bottom of a tall core so it is unlikely that the top portion of the intercooler is directly contributing very much, expecially as it's also obstructed by the bumper.
-> The pipework diameter and bends utilise the OE route which is more restrictive that the TT route using larger diameter pipe work.
These interpretations are simply based upon the research I have performed online and by contacting some of the major suppliers/fabricators. My argument is that if you're willing to spend a bit of time messing around then you can improve upon the performance of the Forge (and Pro Alloy) kits substantially, using mandrel bent pipework for optimal flow and a shorter, thicker core that slows the air and extracts more heat, and is more directly exposed to incoming air through the bottom of the bumper - much like the AM kit.
<discuss>
nice write up and a nice read, but from experience, going from an SMIC to my Pro Alloy FMIC saw a massive instant improvement - big grins all round
logging saw some nice temps, and my butt dyno was happy with the improvement the FMIC had over the standard SMIC running on standard boost...slightly more laggy due to the pressure drop, but power was a lot better throughout the rev range
horses for courses, and also having to work with a car that was not designed in the factory with an FMIC, so the tuners that make these parts are up against it from the start, and have to work the best they can with what they are given i.e. feeding certain size pipework around an engine bay which was not designed to house it, so it is never going to be perfect
for the power that most run on here, the Forge or PA route will more than suffice
Agreed, all depends how bothered you are. In my eyes both standard kits from Forge and Pro Alloy have limitations that can be improved upon (Pro Alloy being an awful fit without different mounting brackets and soft silicone hoses that balloon), if you're willing to deal with the hassle which most people aren't fussed with when perceived improvements in performance may be minimal.
jamiebennett81
Guest
tell me about it, PA kit was the biggest PITA to fit ever! although not quite designed for my car....due to the prefacelift bumpers
for the standard mapped k03s or hybrid k03's out there, this design will be fine, in terms of actually noticing any difference on the road if all the pipework was to be replaced
replacing the silicon pipe work from my PA kit is on the list of things to do at some point as it is bloody awful (and its black so I want it done in blue to match the rest of the hoses)
leedc5
Guest
thanks for the advice, quick question if thats ok, i'm ok with the basics of fixing cars but this is something i doubt i could do, where would be the best place to take the car for them to do the modification, how much would it roughly cost and is there much work involved, i usually use the search button but i'm on my mobile
it will work fine, all be it its a twin pass cooler so will suffer a slightly higher pressure drop
like?
had no problems with their quality of products what so ever i.e. Forge 007p, FMIC etc
Like the **** R for a start and the ready made FMIC kit only really any good as far as a k03s with nothing but a custom route after that
Any of the traders on here may do it for a price, or perhaps worth enquiring with other members near you who have fitted them themselves and may not mind lending a hand at mates rates
leedc5
Guest
leedc5
Guest
Yep im always around to lend a hand
top man, i'm in warmley if thats close to you? what bits would i need to convert it?
Yeh its not far from me really mate. What exactly you wonna do? This threads gone a few directions now so unclear what you want doing!!
leedc5
Guest
ibiza cupra suggested modifying to a single core instead of twin pass, would that be something you could do? im not to sure what would be involved in doing it tbh
No i wouldnt be able to do anything like that mate. You would need to get one of the ports welded up and another fabricated onto the other side. Needs to be alloy welded aswel which is quite costly. Probably work out cheaper to get the universal cooler tbh
leedc5
Guest
ok mate no probs, thanks for offering though much appriciated, i'll have a little think about what to do
jamiebennett81
Guest
"Why do forge make alot of things that aint actually as good as there supposed to be" which now equates to only one of their products which is the "**** R"......one product which does not work quite right hardly defines "alot" of their products not working as they should do?.....otherwise they would not have the presence that they do in the UK market (because they do make very good products)
and yes their FMIC is only good for the K03s, as that is the power it's designed for.....as the next step is going BT so a different FMIC would be required, so it works well for the purpose it is designed for, therefore nothing wrong with that product, so I fail to see your point about classing "alot" of their products as it actually only boils down to one product
cuprachrissy
Guest
"Why do forge make alot of things that aint actually as good as there supposed to be" which now equates to only one of their products which is the "**** R"......one product which does not work quite right hardly defines "alot" of their products not working as they should do?.....otherwise they would not have the presence that they do in the UK market (because they do make very good products)
and yes their FMIC is only good for the K03s, as that is the power it's designed for.....as the next step is going BT so a different FMIC would be required, so it works well for the purpose it is designed for, therefore nothing wrong with that product, so I fail to see your point about classing "alot" of their products as it actually only boils down to one product
agreed jaimie ^^^^ , this thread has been a good read! but hang on a minute, the forge fmic is only gd for k03s? thank god i dint buy one
Similar threads
