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esp/tcs
- Thread starter seat130fr
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- esp or tcs
I was under the impression TCS only backed off the power if the wheels started to lose traction due to power exceeding grip levels through hard acceleration.
ESP functionality would activate if for instance you lost grip through a corner and would bias the power to the wheel with grip using the differential and hence stop you sliding off the road (not necessarily because you were accelerating - like TCS).
The Ibiza's only have TCS/ABS/EBA. I think the R spec cars have ESP and EDL as well.
ESP functionality would activate if for instance you lost grip through a corner and would bias the power to the wheel with grip using the differential and hence stop you sliding off the road (not necessarily because you were accelerating - like TCS).
The Ibiza's only have TCS/ABS/EBA. I think the R spec cars have ESP and EDL as well.
coxw said:
ESP: The import cars have them as well ask muddy he has got it as well. Here i holland it is an option which i chose works very well in the winter.
I made the mistake and got esp added. It sounded a good idea. Basically its an advanced form of TC and will stop you reving too hard when the car hasn't got traction and in theory will keep you straight when skidding. But heres the down side.
Trying to turn out of a side road onto a busy road is a pain with it on,
floor your car out and the Esp decides to cut your engine revs cos you slip a little, and you can end up at an almost stand still.
Its no good for people that like to drive quickly, its a sunday driver tool which would come in handy if a deer ran out in front.
The other downside is that if you have it and you have an accident while its turned off your insurance company will not pay out.
Trying to turn out of a side road onto a busy road is a pain with it on,
floor your car out and the Esp decides to cut your engine revs cos you slip a little, and you can end up at an almost stand still.
Its no good for people that like to drive quickly, its a sunday driver tool which would come in handy if a deer ran out in front.
The other downside is that if you have it and you have an accident while its turned off your insurance company will not pay out.
REALLY?! 
Hmmm, yet another confused thread about TCS Vs ESP.
They are 2 different things, although ESP includes TCS/ASR too (But it may not be identical).
Basically TCS detects wheelspin by comparing front and rear wheel speeds. It the front wheels are turning significantly faster than the rear wheels then it cuts the power. mklock, this is the same whether you have ESP or just bog standard TCS, so it wont of made any difference that you selected the ESP option.
ESP does NOT direct power to the wheels with the most grip or anything like that. ESP has the ability to apply the brakes to individual wheels, which it can use to try and control understeer/oversteer and keep the car on the road and facing the right direction.
EDL/EDS is yet another, completely unrelated system. It is only active at speeds below 20mph, and it detects if one of the front wheels is spinning faster than the other (By more than the margin that normal steering effects allow). If one is spinning faster then it will apply the brakes to that wheel. You can hear this working and it makes a sound a bit like a ruler being pinged on the edge of a table.
A good way of seeing EDL working is to lift both the front wheels off the ground, run the car in 1st gear idle revs, so the front wheels are turning slowly. Now (Carefully) apply some resistance to one of the front wheels causing it to slow (Don't hold it, the cars stronger than you!).... the EDL will think that the other wheel is spinning, and so will apply the brakes to that wheel. The net result is that the other wheel will stop suddenly.
If you do the above be VERY careful.
Thanks
Ben
They are 2 different things, although ESP includes TCS/ASR too (But it may not be identical).
Basically TCS detects wheelspin by comparing front and rear wheel speeds. It the front wheels are turning significantly faster than the rear wheels then it cuts the power. mklock, this is the same whether you have ESP or just bog standard TCS, so it wont of made any difference that you selected the ESP option.
ESP does NOT direct power to the wheels with the most grip or anything like that. ESP has the ability to apply the brakes to individual wheels, which it can use to try and control understeer/oversteer and keep the car on the road and facing the right direction.
EDL/EDS is yet another, completely unrelated system. It is only active at speeds below 20mph, and it detects if one of the front wheels is spinning faster than the other (By more than the margin that normal steering effects allow). If one is spinning faster then it will apply the brakes to that wheel. You can hear this working and it makes a sound a bit like a ruler being pinged on the edge of a table.
A good way of seeing EDL working is to lift both the front wheels off the ground, run the car in 1st gear idle revs, so the front wheels are turning slowly. Now (Carefully) apply some resistance to one of the front wheels causing it to slow (Don't hold it, the cars stronger than you!).... the EDL will think that the other wheel is spinning, and so will apply the brakes to that wheel. The net result is that the other wheel will stop suddenly.
If you do the above be VERY careful.
Thanks
Ben
mklock said:
Can't say I find the Ibiza's ESP anywhere near that bad, have you Niall ?
It doesn't cut power anywhere near as harshly as other cars I've driven; my g/fs Focus TC is far worse.
Just my opinion here, but if you find it cutting in that much and interefring with your driving, then you must be driving like a complete loon ! A bit like saying "these damn airbags, they keep getting in my way" ! A bit OTT to call it a Sunday driver's tool.
Unless of course the ESP fitted to the Leons is a previous generation of ESP, and the newer ones are a bit better.
Whatever; if it saves my life just the once then it's a worthwhile option.
W4YNE said:
I thnk ESP works by monitoring the motion & direction of the car, and comparing it with the actual steering input. If the car's starting to slide in a direction not asked for by the steering wheel, then it'll try and correct it.
But if you were just cornering very hard, with a back wheel in the air, as long as the car was still following the line asked of it, I wouldn't have thought ESP should cut in. If the back or front broke free though, it would start braking individual wheels (& cut engine power) to try and bring you back on line.
Somewhere online is a handy site (Bosch I think) which shows how it works under different situations, I'll see if I can find it...
Yeah, I had a link to a site that described how it works, but that link no longer works.
W4YNE, lifting the inside rear wheel when corning hard is just the anti rollbars doing their thing (Note that its the inside FRONT that will lift on a rwd car).
Traction control and ESP have no place on track. They slow you down badly, and can even be dangerous.
For example, I took my Mk3 with IHI upgrade to Mallory recently... it was very wet (And snow on the roof tops!) and I was breaking traction really easily, so I decided to leave the TCS (Not ESP) on for the first session, just until I had learnt the track. Anyway, I was taking it easy, but still the car was all over the place n the corners, understtering, oversteering etc (My car was setup for a dry track. ie. lots of negative camber, hard suspension, stiff rear ARB etc).
Anyway, getting to the point... I entered a corner and the back end started to go (Fairly slowly to begin with), so I countersteered and accelerated as you do in a fwd car. Trouble is, the TCS saw that the front wheels were turning faster than the rear wheels, and so assumed I was wheelspinning, so it cut the power. The net result is that the backend continued coming round and I had a trip across the grass!
And for your amusement I got it all on camera. Mallory Spin
Turn up the volume and bass and listen to the engine. As I countersteer you can hear the all the power go, thanks to the TCS!
Ben
W4YNE, lifting the inside rear wheel when corning hard is just the anti rollbars doing their thing (Note that its the inside FRONT that will lift on a rwd car).
Traction control and ESP have no place on track. They slow you down badly, and can even be dangerous.
For example, I took my Mk3 with IHI upgrade to Mallory recently... it was very wet (And snow on the roof tops!) and I was breaking traction really easily, so I decided to leave the TCS (Not ESP) on for the first session, just until I had learnt the track. Anyway, I was taking it easy, but still the car was all over the place n the corners, understtering, oversteering etc (My car was setup for a dry track. ie. lots of negative camber, hard suspension, stiff rear ARB etc).
Anyway, getting to the point... I entered a corner and the back end started to go (Fairly slowly to begin with), so I countersteered and accelerated as you do in a fwd car. Trouble is, the TCS saw that the front wheels were turning faster than the rear wheels, and so assumed I was wheelspinning, so it cut the power. The net result is that the backend continued coming round and I had a trip across the grass!
And for your amusement I got it all on camera. Mallory Spin
Turn up the volume and bass and listen to the engine. As I countersteer you can hear the all the power go, thanks to the TCS!
Ben
I can understand that.BenS1 said:
Wonder what would have happened with ESP though instead of just TCS, would that have helped, as it would try to kill the oversteer ?
muddyboots said:
Yes, ESP should of made a better job of it. In fact, given how slowly the back came around to begin with I'm pretty sure the ESP would of coped.
ESP can be beaten though, so don't rely on it all the time.
Also, ESP on a track will just slow you down.
Cheers
Ben
ESP rely's on several things condition of the road, tyre's, suspension etc etc. My ESP never really come's on only when driving like a loon. But come the time when the snow falls then it's on all the time. It has saved me from a couple of low speed shunt's with a kerb so far.
If you are having traction problems then i would get a different brand of tyre or fit some winter tyre's. Another tip for ESP drivers is to get youré tyre's filled with Pure nitrogen it help's a lot with cornering with ESP. The ESP doesn't shock as much.
My dad has got a new E200CDI with ESP as standard. With me driving i was constantly sideways when wet then the ESP started working now it has got nirtogen filled tyre's and when it starts going the ESP cuts in whereas it cut in after the backend was level with the passanger door. RWD cars have to have ESP when driven like a loon when wet.
If you are having traction problems then i would get a different brand of tyre or fit some winter tyre's. Another tip for ESP drivers is to get youré tyre's filled with Pure nitrogen it help's a lot with cornering with ESP. The ESP doesn't shock as much.
My dad has got a new E200CDI with ESP as standard. With me driving i was constantly sideways when wet then the ESP started working now it has got nirtogen filled tyre's and when it starts going the ESP cuts in whereas it cut in after the backend was level with the passanger door. RWD cars have to have ESP when driven like a loon when wet.
I drive around in a rwd RX7 quite a lot. No ESP in that, not even any form of traction control.
Its scarey.
Ben
Its scarey.
Ben
I normally have TCS switched on, unless going fast. I had a scary moment taking a 90 degree bend in second accelerating hard all nice and tidy, then the TCS came in and the car became very unstable as you would expect from suddenly cutting the power mid bend.
Luckily I managed to exit the corner still on my side of the road etc, but don't want to try that again.
It is pretty hopeless for exiting junctions quickly too.
Luckily I managed to exit the corner still on my side of the road etc, but don't want to try that again.
It is pretty hopeless for exiting junctions quickly too.
Craig Senior said:I assume it will say it on the button.
Mine only has TCS - TCS button between the seats. I would imagine it would say ESP if that was fitted or are the two switched seperately?
Not much help really am I?
Good to see another Yorkshireman on here by the way
Always assumed ESP was automatic i.e not switchable like TCS.
for the WEST Yorkshire welcome, was born in Dewsbury, also in sadder day's ended up in a car park at a "cruise" near the sports centre.,,, 
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