Turbo blown - Hydraulic Lock!!! Help!

[deepfat1]

Ok then I have a seat leon tdi 110 se 97000 miles Mk1.

Escuse me as I dont have much mechanical knowledge but I will have a go.

3500 revs in 2nd gear doing approx 40 - 45mph, loose power and smoke coming from exhaust eventually after approx 200 yards lost all power and cut out. RAC man came out, no oil in sump! At first thought my engine had blown but after filling back up with oil asked me to start engine nothing? So then he gave battery a charge as suspected battery may be flat as was sat with sidelights and hazards on, hey presto engine turned over even if though still blowing smoke and as soon as foot taken of pedal it cut out, only had it running for about 10secs. He said turbo had gone.

So I got a brand new turbo and had car took to a garge. Upon taking it to the garage they said it had a hydraulic lock as well as turbo had gone so would need to remove injectors turn engine by hand to remove oil clean egr,intake pipes, intercooler etc.

Had a call to say this had been done and the engine was turning and seemed like no severe damage had been done to rods, pistons, valves, crank etc and would just need to fit turbo and put back together.

Today turbo has been fitted and had a call to say everything was running fine for about ten minutes until engine went into runaway! managed to put it into reverse (after approx 20 secs) and stop engine before it blew but reckon must be getting oil from somewhere it shouldnt...not sure how as thought it had been cleaned out? So will need to take all intake pipes intercooler off etc etc and clean again to see if this rectifies problem??? He also mentioned the oil level indicator stick was showing over the max even though he had done an oil change and filled it to just below the max.

Im very worried that as the engine went into runaway, even though it did not go bang or explode it may have done more damage to my engine and even wrecked the new turbo even though they say it would be fine (how they would know this without running it i have no idea)! Also is there anything that should have been done or not done to stop the runaway happening, did they perhaps leave oil in a pipe or the intercooler or could there still be oil left in the bores even though removing injectors and turning engine by hand/spanner should have pushed it all out - shouldnt it?

Only had the car 4 months full servive history everything fine up till now but the bill is going up and up and need help! To think i bought a diesel to save money well it dont feel like that anymore

Thanks

 

[jezza49]

im in the same boat to matey but mine was down to water for hydroloc, two months ive been waiting for mine back new head pistons cranks ect ect not good, im not much help im afraid but hope it all gets sorted for you and faster than mine good luck!

 

[deepfat1]

Forgot to mention car is an 03 plate if that makes any difference.

Cheers

 

[deepfat1]

Still waiting for the phone call to tell me my new turbo is now fooked! I just know its coming.

Beginning to wonder if they knew what they were doing. If the engine was running fine it seems as the hydrolock was sorted with no major damage to engine...until they reved it up and it started using oil from somewhere (probably the so called clean intercooler) n then going into the dreaded runaway!!!

Totally gutted

 

[Muttley]

deepfat1 wrote

3500 revs in 2nd gear doing approx 40 - 45mph, loose power and smoke coming from exhaust eventually after approx 200 yards lost all power and cut out. RAC man came out, no oil in sump! At first thought my engine had blown but after filling back up with oil asked me to start engine nothing? So then he gave battery a charge as suspected battery may be flat as was sat with sidelights and hazards on, hey presto engine turned over even if though still blowing smoke and as soon as foot taken of pedal it cut out, only had it running for about 10secs. He said turbo had gone.

Blown turbo would leak oil from the seals, which would get into the intake piping and eventually into the engine. That would account for the smoke and the loss of performance.

So I got a brand new turbo and had car took to a garge. Upon taking it to the garage they said it had a hydraulic lock as well as turbo had gone so would need to remove injectors turn engine by hand to remove oil clean egr,intake pipes, intercooler etc.


This is where I start to have some trouble with the story. How did they diagnose hydraulic lock, which is liquid in the cylinders preventing the engine from turning over? You obviously didn't have it when the RAC man had you start the engine again.

Where has that oil come from???

Today turbo has been fitted and had a call to say everything was running fine for about ten minutes until engine went into runaway! managed to put it into reverse (after approx 20 secs) and stop engine before it blew but reckon must be getting oil from somewhere it shouldnt...not sure how as thought it had been cleaned out? So will need to take all intake pipes intercooler off etc etc and clean again to see if this rectifies problem??? He also mentioned the oil level indicator stick was showing over the max even though he had done an oil change and filled it to just below the max.


Oil level. It is a basic mistake to fill up to the line without letting the oil drain fully into the sump. There isn't anywhere that more oil can come from, so he must have overfilled it to start with. It's still showing overfull after having a runaway incident!

Shutting the engine off should cause the antishudder flap to shut, starving the engine of air. You can shut it by hand if necessary. I wonder how well this garage understands diesels.

Overfilling on its own can cause runaway, the oil getting dragged through the PCV system, the Positive pressure Crankcase Ventilation system, into the inlet.

But from the evidence given up to now, I'd suspect an inlet valve guide, perhaps more than one. I've never heard of it happening, but there's nowhere else that oil could be getting in to the inlet side of the engine.

Im very worried that as the engine went into runaway, even though it did not go bang or explode it may have done more damage to my engine and even wrecked the new turbo even though they say it would be fine (how they would know this without running it i have no idea)! Also is there anything that should have been done or not done to stop the runaway happening, did they perhaps leave oil in a pipe or the intercooler or could there still be oil left in the bores even though removing injectors and turning engine by hand/spanner should have pushed it all out - shouldnt it?

Oil in the bores would be gone after the first revolution. There should be no oil in the intake tract if they have taken everything off and flushed out the pipework, as they say they have. They did clean out everything up to the air filter, didn't they? If not, the PCV system is still a possibility, that dumps into the inlet just downstream of the air filter and MAF.

A quick look inside the hoses will tell if there is new oil there. Trace it back and see where it's coming from - turbo seals or PCV. They did make sure the turbo seals were well oiled before turning the engine over, I hope. Did they check it before fitting, to make sure it was oil-tight? You handed them a brand-new turbo so if it's gone, it's their fault for fitting it wrongly, not making sure it was properly lubricated and that the oil lines were clear. The return line from the turbo was almost certain to have been full of metal chippings and residue from the original blown turbo, and if they hadn't cleaned that out or replaced it, oil pressure could blow the turbo seals and lead to a runaway.

If there's no oil in the inlet pipes, then I can't see it being anything else other than inlet valves.

 

[deepfat1]

Thanks for the reply Muttley.

Ok then have spoken to mechanic who says he has cleaned everything out thourohghly again, also asked about oil lines being free of debris and he was adamant they were.

He is also adamant that the turbo will be fine (even though this has not been inspected yet) a full inspection is being done monday so he says! He did mention he looked at it and says no leaks around it though in its fixed position?

He also mentioned there was no oil in the intake/inlet pipe (well i think thats what he said) the one that runs into the egr valve. Im still convinced that the intercooler was not properly cleaned out but who knows? Also would a faulty egr valve cause a runaway and how could you tell if this was faulty?

With regards to the inlet valves, I presume this means head off big money job! Just out of interest if this is the case what costs for parts/labour would i be looking at? Surely though if there was a problem with the valves would'nt there be a suspect knocking noise or something. He said engine was ticking over ok no knocking etc until he reved her up after approx 10 - 15 mins once the engine had warmed up which sent it into runaway!

Thanks again

 

[Muttley]

The most likely cause of a runaway in a turbo diesel is the turbo oil seal. However if there is no oil in the inlet pipe around the EGR then nothing is getting in from the turbo.

A worn diesel engine can run away due to oil being sucked past the piston rings. You'd need to take the head off and inspect the bores. Such wear isn't usually seen in a VW TDI unless it's been seriously neglected.

The EGR valve won't cause runaway - it opens to allow exhaust into the inlet for emission control purposes (no, honestly, it reduces the oxygen in the cylinder which reduces the peak combustion temperature and stops NOx formation). Failed EGR's can cause overpressure in the inlet and trigger a limp mode, but that's about it.

There's one interesting point in the mechanic's story. You wrote - He said engine was ticking over ok no knocking etc until he reved her up after approx 10 - 15 mins once the engine had warmed up which sent it into runaway!

So it was fine until he revved it up, eh?

Diesel engines are remarkably frugal, and at idle the airflow in the inlet and intercooler would be very low - a gentle breeze. The turbo, although spinning, doesn't generate much boost at idle revs, 800-1000 rpm. Revving up the engine would bring the turbo into boost range (above 1700 rpm or so) and naturally increase the gas flow to something more noticable.

I bet there was something left in the intercooler which got dragged out as he increased the revs.

Ask him if he used paraffin to clean out the intercooler . . . . .

 

[deepfat1]

Hi again muttley.

Well thats what i reckon. He says he left the other mechanic to clean the intercooler out who said he had and will be asking him monday how/what he used to clean it it out (erm and you didnt check it to see if it was, what a proffesional) He has now shown me the intercooler off the engine which he reckons has now been cleaned again with hot soapy water and a jet wash to ensure toatally clean and left to drip dry overnight? Will this do the job or should kerosene or something be used?

Ok then lets say this was the cause. What are the chances of the new turbo being damaged/fooked due to the high revolutions then sudden stop after stalling the engine even if only for approx 15 - 20 secs? He said it was properlly oiled up and oil was sealed within turbo before fitting and can see no issues in situe. I have asked him to remove it to ensure no damage has been done (whether he does who knows) but if it has what parts of the turbo do you suggest would be damaged from a high rev? The propeller, seals, bearing or vains? Just asking cus it may only have slight damge it may be ok for a while and then boom back to we we started again! I rather have another turbo if this is the case cus i do not wanna go through this again. May take to a specialist to get turbo inspected cus im not sure whether to believe this garage anymore.

Also im preying that the runnaway hasent done serious damage to the engine as it sounded ok at first until the runaway occured. Hopefully not, as you say these engine are pretty strong but still not an ideal situation all the same!

Thanks for all the info on this hopefully tommorrow i will get a call to say all is ok get my car and never take it there again!

Thanks mate

Cheers mate

 

[deepfat1]

At last car back!

Smoking like a trooper but all seems ok! Must have been the intercooler...idiot mechanic must not have cleaned it properly!

Thanks for all the info muttley at least if anything ive learnt something from this!

Turbo seems ok too no dodgy noises, n seems to be doing its job, see for sure once the oil has burnt out the exhaust! n i can take it on a bit of a blast

Mite get some sleep tonight!

 

[Muttley]

deepfat1 wrote

He has now shown me the intercooler off the engine which he reckons has now been cleaned again with hot soapy water and a jet wash to ensure toatally clean and left to drip dry overnight? Will this do the job or should kerosene or something be used?

I've never done this job, but I'd be inclined to use paraffin (or kerosene if you prefer to call it that) to loosen the oil and get it out of the intercooler, followed by soapy water to get the paraffin out, followed by a good blow through with the air hose to dry it out. You don't want water getting into the inlet at all. The intercooler is built like the engine's radiator and has many small channels so that the inlet charge can get cooled off. All those small channels hold oil/paraffin/water pretty well - I'd not want to rely on drip-drying

Ok then lets say this was the cause. What are the chances of the new turbo being damaged/fooked due to the high revolutions then sudden stop after stalling the engine even if only for approx 15 - 20 secs? He said it was properlly oiled up and oil was sealed within turbo before fitting and can see no issues in situe.

I think your turbo is unlikely to be damaged by this incident. The reciprocating bits in the engine are in the front line for damage due to overrevving, and it sounds as though this episode was stopped early enough (assuming it's been reported accurately).



At last car back! Smoking like a trooper but all seems ok! Must have been the intercooler...idiot mechanic must not have cleaned it properly!

It seems likely. However, keep an eye on it, and if it keeps on smoking, take it back 'cause oil's getting in where it shouldn't.

Turbo seems ok too no dodgy noises, n seems to be doing its job, see for sure once the oil has burnt out the exhaust! n i can take it on a bit of a blast

It is reasonable to assume that the smoke you're seeing now is from oil in the exhaust - which means your catalyst may have suffered. Oil or soot coating the catalyst will stop it working. The turbo may have sooted up a bit too. Best thing to do is get the car warmed up then take it up a long steep motorway/A-road hill as fast as you feel comfortable - with a full load if you can. The aim is to get the turbo and catalyst as hot as you can, to burn off any soot. Posters have mentioned seeing sparks behind them when doing this - bits of carbon being discarded, still glowing.

 

[ChrisGTL]

So even with a ASV the engnie can runaway?