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VW TDi Emissions software scandal

pvm1234567890

Active Member
Mar 10, 2015
108
0
Meath, Ireland
Hey guys

Now that VW have been caught out with their dodgy software instead of urea injection on their 2.0 TDi engines in the US, does this mean that whatever action has to be taken on the TDi offenders in the US will also have to be done to cars in Europe?

For those of you who haven't a clue what I'm talking about, check out these links:

here
here
 

pj106

Active Member
Jan 10, 2015
38
0
Longridge
Hey guys

Now that VW have been caught out with their dodgy software instead of urea injection on their 2.0 TDi engines in the US, does this mean that whatever action has to be taken on the TDi offenders in the US will also have to be done to cars in Europe?

For those of you who haven't a clue what I'm talking about, check out these links:

here
here
I was just wondering exactly the same. There is a class action against VW being prepared by a US firm of lawyers on behalf of TDi owners, maybe the same will happen in Europe.
 

CyberGene

Active Member
Apr 26, 2008
306
1
Sofia, Bulgaria
Driving behind 4-5 year old diesel cars regardless of brand and model is always a disgusting experience which necessitates turning the recirculation on. All those cars have initially passed emission tests, some of them fairly (without a cheating software), yet they deteriorate with time to a point where they become a factor for serious lung issues. How long until we realize diesel cars should be banned? :) I am serious. I understand people with high mileage like them but should this come at the price of our health? Food for thought.
 

Curtly

Active Member
Jun 5, 2015
896
18
Essex
Just to add to this further, do you think they've been fiddling with co2 figures aswell? I imagine if they can build software that can fiddle with nox emissions when on a test run then they should be able to do the same with co2. This would also explain the BS fuel consumption figures that manufacturers claim
 

DEAN0

Old Git
Feb 1, 2006
4,899
126
Preston - UK
Hey guys

Now that VW have been caught out with their dodgy software instead of urea injection on their 2.0 TDi engines in the US, does this mean that whatever action has to be taken on the TDi offenders in the US will also have to be done to cars in Europe?

For those of you who haven't a clue what I'm talking about, check out these links:

here
here
Shouldn't affect too many cars in Europe.

The cars that are affected use the "adblue" system to clean up the exhaust emission.

As far as I am aware - none of the Seat TDi motors currently use the adblue system for emissions.

And many of the VW/AUDI engines only got adblue to comply with euro6 on 1st September.
 

Dr.Dash

Active Member
Aug 30, 2015
299
50
Midlands
Early days but this already looks like being VW's "Deep Water Horizon".
It'll probably kill off VW in N.America, big fines, class action law suits, recalls... Bill? Unknown, and that's a problem in itself.

Reports are already surfacing that other manufacturers' vehicles had notable discrepancies between stated and measured NOx outputs, so it could be the car industry's PPI-scandal.

... do you think they've been fiddling with co2 figures aswell? I imagine if they can build software that can fiddle with nox emissions when on a test run then they should be able to do the same with co2...
The NOx fiddling (Dieselgate) is remarkably easy.

As Deano states above it affects cars using AdBlue SCR. That's a system which sprays a urea solution upstream of the catalytic converter. Ammonia in the adblue converts Nitrogen Oxides into water and Nitrogen. When tests are conducted various systems get turned off, this flagged to the ECU that testing was taking place, the system then increased the Adblue flow allowing the engine to pass the relevant standards. Presumably the flow rate of adblue required to pass the tests was unsustainable in normal use?

It'll further focus attention on emissions tests though, I wouldn't be DeCatting or removing the DPF on any vehicle, scrutiny will filter down to the rest of us in all probability.

CO2 fiddling? Possible yes, but you wouldn't see the huge differences like those on the NOx testing as any "reductions" would come from actually modifying the engine's operating conditions. The BS fuel consumption figures are pretty common across the industry and are a product of the discrepancy between testing and real world conditions IMO. Best to see them as a means to compare vehicles rather than as a true indication of likely mpg.
 

kazand

Is powered by Medtronics
Jun 6, 2010
4,154
66
Brum
Driving behind 4-5 year old diesel cars regardless of brand and model is always a disgusting experience which necessitates turning the recirculation on. All those cars have initially passed emission tests, some of them fairly (without a cheating software), yet they deteriorate with time to a point where they become a factor for serious lung issues. How long until we realize diesel cars should be banned? :) I am serious. I understand people with high mileage like them but should this come at the price of our health? Food for thought.
You going to ban diesel engines from all other systems too? If the problems are as bad as you say then the controls on emissions ( tests, checks etc) where you live need to be looked at as they are not working. By all means take the worst polluting off the road, but a modern diesel car with correctly functioning emissions equipment will not cause any issues.
Remember that a lot more things than cars use diesel engines. Trucks, farm machinery, ships etc.
 

CyberGene

Active Member
Apr 26, 2008
306
1
Sofia, Bulgaria
... a modern diesel car with correctly functioning emissions equipment will not cause any issues.
The scandal we're currently discussing says otherwise ;) I am in no doubt other manufacturers do same manipulations too. Do you think VW have cheated because they wanted to save on a little bit of urea? Or do you think VW are so bad at engineering that they are the only ones that can't make a proper diesel engine? I don't think so. Diesel engines have problems with high Nitrous Oxide emissions and that's a fact. Add to that sooth particles and it gets even worse. EU standards concentrate mainly on CO2 which doesn't have anything to do with health. It's about global warming and it is still a matter of an ongoing debate whether CO2 produced by internal combustion engines actually contributes much to the global warming.

As for the trucks and all other vehicles and machinery running on diesel - most of those use very old diesel engines that should be banned immediately.
 

JACUPRA280

Active Member
Jun 18, 2015
930
51
Somewhere
Driving behind 4-5 year old diesel cars regardless of brand and model is always a disgusting experience which necessitates turning the recirculation on. All those cars have initially passed emission tests, some of them fairly (without a cheating software), yet they deteriorate with time to a point where they become a factor for serious lung issues. How long until we realize diesel cars should be banned? :) I am serious. I understand people with high mileage like them but should this come at the price of our health? Food for thought.
Agreed. Diesel isn't a clean fuel and it never will be. The only thing governing bodies can do to stop the flow of carcinogenics by diesels is ban them completely (new sales immediately, and all older diesels must be taken off the road within 3 years of enforcement).

I don't like diesel cars at all. They are backwards in terms of health. I wouldn't own one, even if I did 50,000 miles a year. No disrespect to people who drive diesels of course :)
 
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kazand

Is powered by Medtronics
Jun 6, 2010
4,154
66
Brum
The scandal we're currently discussing says otherwise ;) I am in no doubt other manufacturers do same manipulations too. Do you think VW have cheated because they wanted to save on a little bit of urea? Or do you think VW are so bad at engineering that they are the only ones that can't make a proper diesel engine? I don't think so. Diesel engines have problems with high Nitrous Oxide emissions and that's a fact. Add to that sooth particles and it gets even worse. EU standards concentrate mainly on CO2 which doesn't have anything to do with health. It's about global warming and it is still a matter of an ongoing debate whether CO2 produced by internal combustion engines actually contributes much to the global warming.

As for the trucks and all other vehicles and machinery running on diesel - most of those use very old diesel engines that should be banned immediately.
No, the scandal that is being discussed is the fact that VAG have been caught fiddling. Clearly if the vehicles pass the emissions tests with the systems working then they obviously work; the issue is keeping them working all the time. The best emissions systems in the world will eventually fail if not maintained. That is the critical point, the rules and regulations. Hence the reason DPF removal is illegal here.

Agreed. Diesel isn't a clean fuel and it never will be. The only thing governing bodies can do to stop the flow of carcinogenics by diesels is ban them completely (new sales immediately, and all older diesels must be taken off the road within 3 years of enforcement).

I don't like diesel cars at all. They are backwards in terms of health. I wouldn't own one, even if I did 50,000 miles a year. No disrespect to people who drive diesels of course :)
Ok, ban all diesels. What are you going to use in its place? Nuclear? Coal? Petrol? Each has its own issues. Until/unless a viable power source is developed diesels are here to stay. One way or another.
 

garybuttle

Active Member
Oct 27, 2011
129
1
Diesel engines produce less than 30% of nox in the air,most is caused by oil heating boilers so shall we ban them too?
 

golfhappy

Active Member
Sep 1, 2015
144
1
Scotland
Diesel engines produce less than 30% of nox in the air,most is caused by oil heating boilers so shall we ban them too?
Looks like at least 10 angry parents outside my house chanting with banners...think they are pointing at my new diesel fr.... hope i.m not going to be part of a 16th century witch hunt! i'm so much looking forward to a chinese for my tea!
 

CyberGene

Active Member
Apr 26, 2008
306
1
Sofia, Bulgaria
No, the scandal that is being discussed is the fact that VAG have been caught fiddling. Clearly if the vehicles pass the emissions tests with the systems working then they obviously work; the issue is keeping them working all the time.
I think you have misinterpreted the facts to a certain degree. What VW have done is not a faulty software. Quite on the contrary, it is actually a software that is very well implemented, and is specifically crafted to deceive certification authorities, lowering the engine emissions when it detects it is being under a test. However, the report states that in all other conditions, i.e. when the software is running as prescribed, it emits up to 40 times more than the acceptable limit!

This isn't done without a reason. If the engine was OK running in "low emission mode", they would have kept it. I believe the performance of the engine is severely hampered, probably the max power and torque are sacrificed and who knows what else, all that in order for the engine to pass a test. And they certainly don't want the engine to be like that all the time.

So, as I said, there are few explanations:

- VW can't manufacture a high-tech diesel engine. Doubtful.
- VW would like to generate more profits by saving on DPF, urea, etc. Very improbable, having in mind their global volume of worldwide sales.
- VW know diesel engines are dirty but it's a global trend, marketed by the supposedly better fuel economy and better torque characteristics, and mostly because diesel engines happen to have lower CO2 emissions which, in combination with some near-sighted taxation systems based on the CO2 such as the one in UK for example, make diesel engines more desirable. That's the most plausible theory in my opinion.
 

JACUPRA280

Active Member
Jun 18, 2015
930
51
Somewhere
Ok, ban all diesels. What are you going to use in its place? Nuclear? Coal? Petrol? Each has its own issues. Until/unless a viable power source is developed diesels are here to stay. One way or another.
Yes, ban all diesels.

Manufacturers should continue to develop petrol engines such as the wonderfully economical 1.4 TSI ACT and the 1.0 EcoBoost which do not release carcinogens into the atmosphere.

I don't know what you're on about or what point you're trying to make with coal and nuclear when petrol is the alternative.

It's quite clear from these revelations that Volkswagen AG cannot develop diesel engines to the EU's or other regulator's emissions requirements, and I'll bet other manufacturers can't either. I say, just scrap diesel altogether and have it used only in agriculture and non-car transport.
 
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